Contests ... Good or Bad?

[jumpmaster]

I would like to know what others think - hosts and singers - about karaoke contests.

I personally have been on both sides of them, and I despise them! In fact, I all but refuse to do them. When I do conduct a contest, I make it abundantly clear that I despise them, that I am not a judge, that I did not (because I will not) pick the judges, I am not providing any of the prizes, I'm just spinning the discs, and as for me...they all showed up and sang...so to me they're ALL WINNERS!

How can you pick judges? Out of the crowd? Heck no, they are bound to know some of the folks in the contest and that would seem to be a conflict in the making. Do you bring in "pros" or folks from local bands who don't make their living from karaoke and are not likely to "know" the contestants? How do you know they don't "know" any of the singers? What kind of band do they play in, rock, and if so would they even consider someone singing a song like "Silver Wings?" Why would any band member in his right mind volunteer for such a thing, and if they're paid, who will pay them?

The judges aside, how can any judging be fair? Do you judge on appearance, vocal ability, or performance? One singer looks and dresses exacly like the original but stands still, doesn't move around, looks at the screen and doesn't sing well. Another sings great, but lacks performance skills and doesn't look like anything like the original. Yet another person will jump around, be goofy, sing the song never looking at the screen and the crowd loves him, even though he can't sing a lick! Should that person win? Then you factor in nice looking, sexy, upbeat songs vs. slow old country, and so on, it ends up being like comparing bicycles to watermellons.

I've seen crowd applause determine the winner, and aside from humiliating the less qualified contestants, it seemed more like who brought the most folks with them than any real merit judging. I've seen judging based on scores of 1-10 for performance, vocal ability, and appearance which are all added up for a total score ranging from 3-30 and of course the most points wins. Now I know that sounds like a great idea, but when the scores are added all up, no one, not even the judges know how that person won!

The perfect winner would sing great, look like the original, and have the crowd eating out of their hands and have no real competition...but believe me, I've been to many contests and there's never a clear winner. What's worse, I have never been to a contest and had the person win that I thought should.

I don't recall ever being at a contest where the people I talked to, contestents or audience agreed on the winner. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard "it was rigged" or they were "ringers" or "the judge was their friend" or something negative like that.

Furthermore, I've heard stories of bar owners doing a big contest and not coming up with the prizes. I've never seen it personally, nor can I confirm the stories...but still the stories in themselves are detrimental.

Anyway, unless you guys set me straight, I'll remain anti-contest. I can't seem to shake the feeling that by telling this one person they are number one, I've actually told all the rest of my singers they aren't number one. I can honestly say that all my singers are number one with me!

Any thoughts?

:r

[kking]

Jumpmaster:
I have always enjoyed hosting contests and I have always hated the judging part. After seeing different contests and methods for judging, the one I chose for my contests is as follows: the contestants judge each other. This is more work because it involves making forms for each contestant to use for judging. This is how it works. Each contestant is given a form with everyone's name on it except theirs. I have three categories listed, with scores from 1-5. I then announce contestants names and make sure the contestant/singers are judging the right person, when that person comes up to sing. After the contest I pick up forms and tally scores and announce the winner. Hope this helps. kking

[MusicBear]

I wish the bar I went to voted in this way!

The K.J. passes out ballots at random to members of the crowd, and they vote in their own populairty contest...

Very unfair!

I've lost three times already, and I'm a pretty good singer if I do say so myself! :)

[danny_g]

Every contest I have been to has been unfairly judged. In fact one of them had a very bad incident. Appartly one of the judges had been dating one of the contestants and basically they broke up for the duration of the contest just so she could compete. Well She ended up winning, the resukts were contested and apparently they added up the score sheets wrong. So a it actually ended up a tie and the prize was divided between the two contestants. Any way back to the judge/ contestant situation. The two got back together about a week later.
Other shows the only way to win is to have a great body or pay off the owner of the bar by drinking heavily every time you entered the place while the contest was going on. I drink soda only as alchohol interfears with a medication I am on, plus the fact that I don;'t like alchohol at all anyway. Tried it before I started the meds. Hated the taste. I competed in a contest where I positively nailed both songs I sang while a female who although she had a decent voice could not get the melody of Tina Turner's version of "Proud Mary" correct. One of the songs I nailed was a very difficult number especially at the end of the song. It was Journey's "Faithfully". I basically had the song perfect and I moved around the bar as if I was "Steve Perry".
Yet she got chosen over me. The KJ actually was surprized at the results as well- indicates to me he didn;'t have controll over who is judgeing.
One question thogh- How did you eliminate the singers doing a weakest link type of voting where the person who won wasn't necessarily the best performer? I would think that they would all vote for themselves and give all of their opponants bad reviews.

[kking]

to danny g :
The singers get a judging form with everyones name on it but theirs. They don't get to judge themselves. Most people that compete in contests will judge their peers fairly and honestly according to their opinion of who truly did the best job. This is the only judging method that I have found that eliminates most of the bad feelings that are associated with contests. If there are any more questions on specifics, I would be happy to answer them. kking

[tinman]

I judge these contest all the time. The only problem I have is (example) there were 6 winners and the 1st place winner walked away (stole) $600.. I suggested that there be at least 10 winners splitting money equally.. More people would show up and levels the playing field.. The judges were surprised in the last contest when a girl came in 3rd and could not sing well at all.. :e Something was up here.... The next contest will be judged by the judges and the KJ will not know the results untill we announce it.
:g

[Cid_cat]

Don't ruin Miller time with a contest. Just relax, sing and have fun!

I personally hate them....no one wins a popularity contest.

[tinman]

Contest are also for those people to invite friends out to hear them sing in a contest.. Those of you who don't (minority) probably cant sing or would never win a contest. Remember in our contest there are no professionals and I know. also people pay closer attention to those singers on that nite unlike other nites.:c one other thing: I am surprised at myself for keeping this thread going and wondering why the important threads of questions and concerns are not.. (i had problems but no resolve yet) thanks

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by tinman
Contest are also for those people to invite friends out to hear them sing in a contest.. Those of you who don't (minority) probably cant sing or would never win a contest. Remember in our contest there are no professionals and I know. also people pay closer attention to those singers on that nite unlike other nites.:c one other thing: I am surprised at myself for keeping this thread going and wondering why the important threads of questions and concerns are not.. (i had problems but no resolve yet) thanks

I applolgize, for posting this "unimportant" thread! I thought this was for KJ's to discuss the "biz" and for them to get input both from other KJ's and singers. Contests, rotation, and many other subjects impact our profession and I thought it was important. It certainly is for me, as I have three of my clients who want contests and I am leary of them. I thought I could get input so as to make them better.

Are you a KJ Tinman? If you have absolutely no problems with contests and are a KJ, then you must have a "perfect" system for running it and I'd love for you to share your success with us. I personally have been in karaoke since the late 80's and as my original post stated, have never seen one come off without a hitch!?

By the way, I think your post may have been intended to basically say that they're for fun and not to be taken too seriously, and I have to say that I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. However, we do not live in a perfect world, and unfortunately, singers in my area take it way too seriously and there feelings do get hurt. Again sorry, for the "unimportant" thread.

By the way, what problems do you have that we may help you out with, that you are not receiving help for. I may not know the answer, but I'd be glad to help you out if I can.

[Brian Corr]

To me karaoke is about drinking a few beers singing a song ot two and going home.

I like to try as many different songs as possible and get fed up with the same folk singing the same song (singular) week in week out.

[tinman]

Its not that is is not important, but everyone has some stange ideas for these contest.

My reply was in frustration about installing a demo to check out.. still having problems..

There is a perfect way for contest.. Everyone should be a winner.
One girl who won recently, was graded very bad in previous contests and after 2 or 3 more attempts nailed it.. She won based on not only doing a good job but she worked for it and made improvements in both vocal and presentation..

This thread is probably not as important to me as the other I started, but is a good sounding board for all.. Sorry for coming off the wrong way.

I do KJ and am frustrated with the fact I played music for a living and a KJ gets paid more to do less.. (IMO)

[danny_g]

maybe there ought to be some way of having a year end awards ceremony that has catagories like best male singer, best female singer, best performance, most improved performance, best duet, best group song, best supporting vocalist etc. maybe that will take the edge off of the so called Contests that everone gripes over. It will give people something to strive for yet give everyone something they might get a chance to be reckognized for. Just a thought.

[Ken]

My husband and I have been hosting karaoke shows for 12 yrs, and although I don't particularly love the "choosing of judges", my system is fairly fool proof.

There are always four judges set up in different areas of the room. I have created the judge sheets so that although "dress" and entertainment value play a part, in the scoring, they are only worth 30%, 5% for introduction, 40% for voice-i.e. tone, rhythm, clarity etc, 10% for ability to sing without much tv reference, 15% for suitability of song to voice (i.e.singer choosing the right songs for their voice).

The only time I ever had any trouble, was when I got in professional judges (Whose answers I didn't even agree with).....some people thought it was "rigged"....which of course it wasn't ....if anything I would love to have "rigged"it right.....so the right person had won.

So now I rely purely on audience judging..... when i'm adding up the scores after the talent quest......if a judges scores look particularly biased.......I'll exclude it from the totals.......

Hope this info helps

Leanne

[JesterXXX1]

Contests suck! I have been a KJ for over 10 years and I hate them. Sure, it might be good for the bar for that time period....but trust me you can LOSE customers too. When you hold a contest, all the "ringers" come out to try and grab the money. This stinks, because the average Joe WILL NOT SING with these semi-pros. Karaoke is not about who can sing the best, it's about FUN. I have regulars that come to my show every week and frankly, they're horrible vocally...but they have a blast and the crowd love them because they're entertaining. Make your shows FUN and you'll never need a constest. Joke around with your customers, make them feel at home. Try playing a game. On occasions I do "KAMIKAKE KARAOKE", where the singer has NO idea the song he/she has to sing. It is quite amusing, especially if you get a man to sing chick songs like "I AM WOMAN".
People will laugh there ass off! :g

[TraxMasterDJRob]

Hi All.
I've found the reading of this discussion very interesting. ThankYou!!!

.....(I digress)....I've KJ'd contests, been a contestant blah blah ect. ect. just like most of you. I DO NOT LIKE CONTESTS!!!
DO NOT DO THEM!!!! I'll tell you why
Most owners want to do them to make instant cash. This is called "A false sense of Economy". Oh sure, they make $1500 or more, the few nights they host a contest. But all of the 'ringers' and their people will go back to the bar they're used to. If you, (KJ), can talk some of the singers into coming back, good job! But next week, in all likelihood, they're going 'home' and your stuck with whatever crowd you had before. Your 'people' will still come. You have to build -that- group. How many regulars, (remember, they spend more $$ over time) have any chance in those contests. It humiliates the people you have been trying to make think were good or at least halfway decent.

If they know they suck, they stop coming to sing.

The ringers that didn't win think it was rigged (all that BS & Drama). That's not good P.R. for the bar! And, there are lots of losers, only 1 winner. Lots of pissed off people. The ringers are at their 'Home' bar and business has dropped off.

The best way to build business is to advertise and put on a good show. Word of mouth has and will continue to support karaoke. A good show night in and night out will triple the business for a bar owner whose got nothing going on. It takes about 2 months and you should be doing pretty good. At the begining is when advertising is most important. Mr./Ms. Bar owner needs to be able to accept a little loss for the 1st month'ish. Then expect to break even, followed quickly by reliable and consistant crowds making them $$$. It's really rather easy. BUT!!!!....

YOU, Mr./Ms. Karaoke Jockey!!!! Please use the fundamental rules for KJ'ing, ie. use a rotation, don't let 1 person sing 3 or 4 times in 1 rotation, just because they're helping someone on a song, you have to limit that as much as possible. A person new to the bar that night sees this girl sing 3 times since he last sang. That's not good business. Everybody's money spends the same. It is important to remember that. Great singers will jump on you, make you believe your their best freind, and manipulate you into letting them "help" someone else sing songs all the time!

Please do not play for Tokens. It is crucial that you charge the going rate (in your area).

The reason a KJ makes more than Live Bands is simple. A 4 piece band splits $350 - 500=$75-125 a night. A KJ splits $175.00 with 0 people (not counting spouses, of course)!! Simply Math, My Man. It's nothing personal against bands, I Love Live Bands. I've never done that, wish I could. BUT!!!!!!

Bands cost the bar owner more money than KJ'ing, plus You drink less for free than 4 people drinking for free. That's what bar owners need to look at. Beside the fact that once your business is going strong, you make just as much $$ for the bar as the Band can. Simply Math, My Friend.

To resove your tech-thread issues...email support, they get back to you.

Well, I'm tired of all this thinking and typing, so bye for now.

GO PISTONS!! GO RED WINGS!!! GET OUT LIONS & TIGERS!!! (just kidding) Rob E

[Ken]

Well I do tend to think there is good and bad to talent quests. Our Friday nights have been for over 11years now, in one place, i.e. we have performed shows for approx 570 nights at one place. Each year we run between 2 and 3 talent quests (12 weeks long....i.e. 24 to 36 weeks out of the year in talent quest mode). Most Friday nights we are playing to between 300 and 500 people. We believe our success is due to, firstly us..and our system....we run a 3000 watt (RMS) sound system, Ken mixes from centre floor, I run the stage with, two 3-tray players (so I can cue ready). We also have a laptop computer set up by the mix, so as the singer is leaving the stage they hear themselves instantly played back through the speakers.

Most singers that get up and sing.....sing because they love it.....and they are serious about singing "right", so I am there if they want advice on how they sound after they've sung.....occassionally I sing in their ear for a few lines until they get the hang of a song.

Sometimes we do get people who come in from out of town just because there is a talent quest, but once a person has won a talent quest, they can't enter another one at the Club for the next two competitions.

So as far as talent quests being a quick fix.....and not a longivity thing......I don't agree.......we are proof, that us, equipment and talent quests (for half the year) "combination" is what works......11yrs in one place is more than just coincidence.

Leanne

[TraxMasterDJRob]

It's great to hear a "Contest" success story. I was begining to wonder why they were invented in the first place. You keep up the good Karaoke Leanne & Ken. :)

[Ken]

thanks for the vote.........we are the highes paid karaoke in New Zealand......so I guess we have to be doing something right huh?

cheers
Leanne

[NOW & THEN]

Well i'm new at this and may mess up , but here goes. I love to sing at karaoke and I kj with my daughter , and I agree!! Karaoke contests are a kj"s nightmare! My solution is a compromise, and seems to placate my singers.
What i do is ask for 5 or 6 volunteers from my singer list to compete and i make it a very upbeat fun thing. here is how it works: I first get the owner of the establishment to agree on 1 grand prize( usually a $10 to $20 bar tab) and to give each contestant a free shot. Then we write down 5 or 6 "FUN" song titles ( Female and Male titles ) and put them in a container. We then have each contestant draw a song slip out and that is the song they must sing. We usually have the bartender or owner choose the winner based on overall peformance and / or crowd reaction. We keep the stakes LOW and the fun HIGH! Usually everyone laughs it up and makes all the singers feel special, but i try to read my crowd before i decide to do a contest. Taking the pressure off the songer seems to make them happier and i still fill thier need to compete. ( judge question impossible though ) hope you like the suggestion. :r

[slateman]

A KJ at bars in my area has contests; however, he has drawings: the first time you get up to sing, you get a numbered ticket. Close to the end of the show (but not right at 'last call'), he'll do the drawing.

This draws singers to the bar (and keeps 'em there), promotes equal opportunity, and if you're buddy-buddy with other singers who leave early they can give you their tickets to increase your chances.

Another KJ (both with the same company) runs a trivia contest.

These are both great golden means for karaoke contests; however, I don't know if they can do for the bar in $ what a contest based on getting more warm bodies in and drinking can (like the popularity-based contests). Face it, it's the bottom line that counts and even puts the karaoke show there in the first place. But luck-based contests result in alot fewer broken hearts at the end of the night.

I personally don't like contests for all the previously posted reasons, but also because it tends to draw what I like to call "superstars" to the local (non-contest) karaoke scene/shows.

These people are usually extraordinarily good singers; are easily overheard talking to their ever-present crowd of friends about how they only go to contests and how horrible the current show/KJ is; are surrounded by a crowd of friends that will blow the house down with cheering when THEY sing, but not a clap or shout for anyone else, contest or no; act like they are WAY above coming to karaoke just for karaoke's sake; act like the KJ and all the other singers are just "the help"; and will always pester the KJ with stupid stuff & demanding he or she start the song over AT LEAST once every time they sing. In short, they're like the stereotypical "Hollywood actor with an attitude."

Ever meet anyone like this at a show?

I dunno why I just ranted; maybe I'm just bitter, but people like that at karaoke shows really ____ me off!

[Wayne White]

One Bar we KJ at every Wednesday night doesn't have a contest. The bar gives away $100 (maybe).

All Karaoke Request Slips (from all songs actually sang) are placed in a pitcher. Near the end of the night, the waitress draws 1 slip out of the pitcher. If that person is still there, he/she gets $100. If he/she is gone, no money is paid.

This causes people to stay until the drawing and of course, the more songs you sing, the better your chances of winning.

Wayne

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by Wayne White
This causes people to stay until the drawing and of course, the more songs you sing, the better your chances of winning.Wayne

How many times per rotation can a singer sing?

[Wayne White]

Our rotation is always ran the same. Everyone with a song in sings one song. Then we start over.

Actually, when it's busy and we get down to 6 to 8 singers left, the next singer to turn in a request is inserted second in the following rotation. We then alternate new singer/old singer (as long as we have new people entering) otherwise, we will drop a new singer down 6 to 8 songs in an established rotation.

Wayne

[Louieoke]

I don't know if anyone else posted this or not. (I didn't read all of them, sorry) but....A bar I'm hosting at does this and I think it's a good way to draw in business (which is the #1 priority, right?) They have a drawing instead of a contest. Everytime you sing, your name goes in a hat. Every hour or 2 a name is pulled out of the hat and a winner is named and a cash prize is given. This way no one gets their feelings hurt, no one is intimidated, and people that wouldn't ordinarily enter a "contest" will have just as good a chance of winning as the best singer in the place. Just an incentive to show up and sing either way. Good idea? Bad idea? Your thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Louieoke

[Louieoke]

Okay, I see my wonderful idea was already posted. Sorry! I do agree with they guy though, A+++ Idea my man!

[Party of one]

what I have done was to use khp to make things up.
I had what I call baby picture night i had all my regulars names .
When they came up I had a funny clipart for them and a cute saying about them. They loved it.

I also keep their slips and I type them up.
I slipped a ARE YOU PAYING ATTENTION SLIP in with there other ones. I had other saying too to fit thier personality.
They found them cause I heard them laughing.

one thing I also did was " long lost cousin night " where this time I used khp to put clipart of some well long lost cousins some pretty racey too. I had about 30 of them and put four free drink winners. I ask them to pick a number and I pushed that number on the karaoke machine. It worked great just some idea I did at the bar.
:g :g

[SSmith]

Simply put, in a contest you have one winner and a room full of losers!!! No judging method can ever be perfect, and most are seriously flawed. Karaoke is intended to make everyone feel like the "star performer" during their 3 minute song. Contests shatter that illusion for everyone but the winner. Unhappy customers find other places to frequent.

If you MUST hold a contest, I suggest RANDOM DRAWING from the names of all participants. Coupled with MULTIPLE PRIZES, this method will insure the least number of hurt feelings/lost customers.

[jim in ohio]

Don't care for the contests, we see faces at contests that we never have seen before, people that just go from contest to contest, and doesn't do the bar owners any good. Yea we have a good crowd until the award is handed out, then just another night.

JIm

[Ken]

Now there's an idea!!! We still have to run a quota of talent quests at our regular friday night gig.....but we might slip a few of the "random singers draws" in also....during the year when the big TQ is not running. At the moment when we have the TQ we also have a door prize....and draw that towards the end of the night....to keep people there til late....and gives everyone the opportunity of winning....not just the singers....but the random singer draw, could be a nice change. Cheers!!

[Flipeoke]

I not a fan of contests either, but I have hosted a couple of them at the request of the owner.(or demand rather, since I try to discourage against contests). Anyway, if contests are a must this is the way I do it:

Judges are the singers themselves. You get to vote on all the other singers (1-10 scale), but don't vote on yourself. All singers pick a slip from a hat containing a number. This determines where you are singing in the rotation. Once you sing your first song, you pick a slip again. This is so you are not singing after the same person again. (An average singer will tend to sound worse after a great singer,and an average singer will sound better after a poor singer...etc.) Third round same thing. All contestants sing three songs and must remain to the end of the contest. Contestants who leave early or do not cast a vote for each of the singers' three songs are eliminated. The lowest and highest score is dropped for each song. Scores are counted twice, my parter reads off names/scores, while I add them on a calculator, and then I read off names/scores, while he adds. We then make sure those two results match. The person with the highest score wins (or top 3 or top 5 etc...). It's not perfect, but it is the "fairest" that I could come up with.

Flip (a.k.a. Mike)

[CochrellGary]

I don't like contests for the same reasons previously posted. But what do you do when the bar owner wants a

contest? Here's what my wife and I do to make the bar owner happy, the patrons happy and take the CONTEST

out of a karaoke contest.

We call it a BYOB Challenge, (Bring Your Own Buddies), "A singing show where talent doesn't count but your

buddies do."

Basically here's how it works.
Anyone can sign up during the evening, call it a "no talent" signup. The challenge is held during the last hour of the

gig, keeps everyone in the house. All enterants sing one song. When all the enterants have sung their song they

are all brought up front. One at a time their names are called out, and the audience responds with hoots, hollars,

screams, whistles, etc. The winner is picked by audience response.

The secret ingredient is a visual VU meter that the entire audience can see. We display it off of a laptop computer

into an AV projector onto a large screen, software by Radio Shack. The biggest number that shows up on the

meter determines the winner of the challenge. All personalities have been removed from the judging process. The

audience is now involved, they really get into seeing how high they can get the meter to read. The winner of the

challenge is the person who got more of his or her friends to attend and cheer. Everyone can see for themselves

who got the highest reading on the meter. "Talent doesn't count but your friends do." The bar awards dinner for two

at a local restaraunt and after six weeks the previous six winners vie for a home karaoke system. Then the process

starts all over again the following week.

Gary

[SteveWalker]

Originally posted by Flipeoke
Judges are the singers themselves. [/B]

Flipeoke, How do you know if a singer puts his/her own name in? I was at a show last week and all the regulars won the contest and the newcomers were much better overall. Singers can do the judging but the regulars can come together to vote for their buddy to win!

Steve

[danny_g]

Originally posted by CochrellGary
I don't like contests for the same reasons previously posted. But what do you do when the bar owner wants a

contest? Here's what my wife and I do to make the bar owner happy, the patrons happy and take the CONTEST

out of a karaoke contest.

We call it a BYOB Challenge, (Bring Your Own Buddies), "A singing show where talent doesn't count but your

buddies do."

Basically here's how it works.
Anyone can sign up during the evening, call it a "no talent" signup. The challenge is held during the last hour of the

gig, keeps everyone in the house. All enterants sing one song. When all the enterants have sung their song they

are all brought up front. One at a time their names are called out, and the audience responds with hoots, hollars,

screams, whistles, etc. The winner is picked by audience response.

The secret ingredient is a visual VU meter that the entire audience can see. We display it off of a laptop computer

into an AV projector onto a large screen, software by Radio Shack. The biggest number that shows up on the

meter determines the winner of the challenge. All personalities have been removed from the judging process. The

audience is now involved, they really get into seeing how high they can get the meter to read. The winner of the

challenge is the person who got more of his or her friends to attend and cheer. Everyone can see for themselves

who got the highest reading on the meter. "Talent doesn't count but your friends do." The bar awards dinner for two

at a local restaraunt and after six weeks the previous six winners vie for a home karaoke system. Then the process

starts all over again the following week.

Gary

sounds like a contest I would never compete in as all the winner needs to win is the biggest number of friends in the Audience.

[jahern]

Wouldn't somebody bringing their buddies be exactly what the Store is hoping for? If I were the establishment, I would encourage this kind of contest.

[SteveWalker]

jahern,

yes the bar wants more people to increase sales but if the contest is a joke you may piss alot of people off and in the "long run" lose more more than you gain.

[CochrellGary]

BYOB is NOT a contest, it's called a challenge purposly. The enterants are told up front "Talent doesn't count, your friends do" I tell them that if they have enough friends in the house they can beat (insert favorite artist). We are trying to put some FUN back into our karaoke show. To date, the best singer has never won any of the BYOB challenges. In fact the audience usually gets behind the poorest singer. The attendance has increased, not decreased and the bar owners love it (we are holding a BYOB at three locations). This idea may not work for everyone, it works for us. Just posting another approach.

Gary

[Flipeoke]

Steve,

Basically the way I do it is this: I have scoresheets which I write out and include all singers except the name of the singer I give the scoresheet to. Each singer has three empty boxes next to their name, for their three songs. Basically the sheets are blank and numbered, I just fill in the names. Each contest I have done I have changed the design slightly or printed on different color paper. This insures that people can't print up blanks beforehand. All rules are also printed on the sheet as well as "suggested scoring" methods. I say suggested methods as there are a couple of different scoring scales and a note that they are free to use whatever scoring method they want, including ones not listed. Like I said it's not perfect but it works. It all but rules out favoratism, by judges, KJs, staff,etc,

Another thing I have tried is the Scaryoke approach. I try to pick the most obscure songs, that I've never even heard of, and put a song for each of the singers into the hat. When they come up to sing their third song they pick a name from the hat. It works best if you get songs that nobody should know. It shows a different side of showmanship (showwomanship?) how well they can read lyrics, improvise a melody, follow with the music, and interact with the crowd, all at the same time. I've done this once with fairly good results. It was alot of fun.

Flip

[danny_g]

Originally posted by Flipeoke
Steve,

Basically the way I do it is this: I have scoresheets which I write out and include all singers except the name of the singer I give the scoresheet to. Each singer has three empty boxes next to their name, for their three songs. Basically the sheets are blank and numbered, I just fill in the names. Each contest I have done I have changed the design slightly or printed on different color paper. This insures that people can't print up blanks beforehand. All rules are also printed on the sheet as well as "suggested scoring" methods. I say suggested methods as there are a couple of different scoring scales and a note that they are free to use whatever scoring method they want, including ones not listed. Like I said it's not perfect but it works. It all but rules out favoratism, by judges, KJs, staff,etc,

Another thing I have tried is the Scaryoke approach. I try to pick the most obscure songs, that I've never even heard of, and put a song for each of the singers into the hat. When they come up to sing their third song they pick a name from the hat. It works best if you get songs that nobody should know. It shows a different side of showmanship (showwomanship?) how well they can read lyrics, improvise a melody, follow with the music, and interact with the crowd, all at the same time. I've done this once with fairly good results. It was alot of fun.

Flip
Skaryoke sounds like a great equalizer type of contest or challenge. I would definately compete in that kind of contest.
But I would have an unfair advantage with most shows I go to claim they have 10,000 songs but most of those song are duplicates so I believe they only have 4,000 to 5,000 songs and I have a liftime repretare of 3,000 songs that I know the melodies to. Can't say I'm perefect but I can carry a majority of them well enough to c

[gduns - with the Lord]

I have a different type of contest, I think mine is totaly fair. I Put all the request slips in a box and at the end of the night have a drawing. No one ever feels cheated, and everyone participates...... the more they sing the better the chance to win. Most of my giveaways come from the bar ($25.00 bar tab) of free cd's. I have never had a single complaint. I also dont believe in Judged contests. there is hardly ever fairness.

[SteveWalker]

gduns, you are right - it's always biased in some way and someone always get pissed.

[alanross]

I've just finished reading all the posts and it seems clear that the majority of KJs despise the thought of having to run a Karaoke Contest. I, too, despise them.

We are located in a resort area which relies almost entirely on summer tourism for its annual economic vitality. So in the off season, during the four weeks of January, one of the places we play, has insisted we run a Karaoke Contest. It does draw in more business for the bar all through January and the first part of February and then we're right back to normal, but by then we're only a few weeks away from a trickle of tourism resuming.

This past year was the eighth annual contest and it ran far smoother than in years prior because I changed my attitude.

Everything is what you put into it. I decided to embrace the contest this year and having made that decision, I focused on making it the best it could be. I developed a new scoring system for the judges which the bar manager has always appointed; I prepared a written explanation of how the judging was done and what the judges were grading on. I then made sure each judge was aware of the parameters of the judging and gave the contestants all the same information. These printouts made it clear to everyone what the judges were looking for, including the judges.

We play at this place seven nights a week and the contest is only held on Wednesday nights for four weeks of qualifying in January and the finalists all return the first week in February to compete for the grand prize. Every other night they can come in and practice the songs they want to sing for the qualifying and final rounds. Plus they can come to any of the dozen other shows we host at other places around town on any given night to practice. This seriously reduces the number of "just pop in to win people" because it's a month long event. It also increases business to all our shows because, as you know, Karaoke singers take it VERY seriously.

During each qualifying week, we chose the top three scoring vocalists as finalists so by the end of the fourth week we have 12 contestants for the finals. We also don't make the whole show about the contest. It is a subset of the Karaoke night. The first hour and a half are for anyone who wants to sing and for the contestants to warm up a bit. Then the contest runs for an hour, TOPS. Then we return to regular karaoke for everyone after the weekly prizes are awarded.

We follow the same format for the finals. In the south we call it the "y'all sing" time before the contest, then the finals, then back to "y'all sing".

I LOVE the idea of singers judging each other. Every year I hate hearing the moaning and complaining of the people who don't win, but if they judge each other, there's no one to blame but each other! Brilliant!

But the secret to the success this year was really my attitude. I gave it all I had. I was every bit as fun and lively as I am every other night of the week. Everyone knows how much I hate doing the contests and they all sympathize with me when I have to run one. I am friends with every one of our regulars and they know I have absolutely no love of the contests, so they spotted the change right away. Everyone's energy remained high, each contestant sang with all their worth, the judges paid stick attention to detail and you could see the contestants really try to give what they knew the judges were looking for.

At the end of the night, everyone felt like they had done their best performance ever and amazingly, all but one lady from out of town (who was terribly tone deaf and didn't understand why she didn't win) felt that the right person won based on the judging criteria.

The criteria I created was a score of 1-25 for Song Choice (How well the song suited the person's personality and voice); 1-25 for Stage Presence and 1-50 for Vocal Talent. Best possible score being 100. Three judges can each score up to the max for each category and the scores are all then added together for a max score of 300 per contestant. By having a wide range of 1-25 for scoring, the judges have more room to play with subtle differences between contestants. Scoring from 1-10 means that "Bill" and "Sue" could both get an 8, while using 1-25 means Bill could get a 20 and Sue a 22 because she was slightly better in a category.

Next year, however, I will apply these same criteria to the new judges (THE CONTESTANTS!) and I'm having them judge each other. Just brilliant! (That's probably why I didn't think of it - it's BRILLIANT!)

I hope this helps anyone who has to run a contest even against their recommendations to the owners/managers.

- Alan Ross
Nags Head, North Carolina

[DynamicMike]

I don't generally like contests.

For the bar owner, they usually advertise there is a contest starting at 9:30 or all the ringers know it starts at 9:30. So the ringers come in at 9:30, sing their song and drink a free glass of water until the vote for the ca$h. (And no, I don't own a bar)

The regulars who have sung a couple of songs (and have been spending some money) have to wait until the contest is over to get back to their enjoyment and the ringers leave the bar.

I was at a bar in Burbank and they did their contest as a Karaoke Suicide. You put your name in the hat if you wanted a chance. They only drew 5 names out and those 5 people didn't get to pick what song they were singing. An interesting twist, but the "ringers" don't like that too well.

I think a variation of that would be good. You put your name in one hat, and the song you want to sing in the other. If your name is selected, you come up and choose your song out of the other hat. You might get lucky and pull the song you want...or maybe you get stuck with a Blonde tune.

Just a thought...I'm not a KJ, just like to go have a good time.

[darrinlutz]

I see a lot of good post. We have done a sort of Name that Tune contest for small prizes, usually from the bar owner, free burger, drink, maybe a free ticket to one of his band dances.....

But I would like to relate a bad experience we saw......

One of our good patrons asked us to cheer her on at another karaoke show she would go to. We only run a show one nite a week at a different place, so we didn't mind obliging her....... Small show, about 6 singers as I remember, they each sang two songs. That took about an hour out of the singing rotation for everyone else. Two of the singers were the KJ, the other was his wife.....hmmmmm...... we didn't bother entering the contest, we were there for our friend. She sang very well, however, judging..... don't recall who came in first, but definately remember the KJ came in second.... needless to say , we haven't been back neither has our friend.

That just ain't right.....

Darrin
Karaoke Kraize

[Ken]

That was totally unprofessional of the KJ...what's the mentality of some of these people....it's almost like their ego's need constant "pumping', that's definitely the worst kj story that I've ever heard

[SteveWalker]

I just finished doing "Benningan's Idol" karaoke contest at six Benningan’s locations. It was organized by a couple ladies who own a travel agency so the top prize was a trip two to Cancun. I provided the music and the ladies registered the singers and picked the judges from the audience. We had fantastic singers on all three preliminary nights where one singer wins, then goes on to compete in the semi-finals and later the finals. Singers that don't win can come back to any of the other Benningan's to compete in the preliminaries.

Toward the end of a contest night, the two ladies would tally up the score and I have all singers doing a song like YMCA. As for judging, I always seem to know who is likely to win or at least I narrow it down to the top two. Funny thing is that my picks won only about half of the time. I noticed that the winners seemed to be the ones who came from show to show and were from these ladies home town. Perhaps the ladies felt more compassion for these people and decided to override the judge’s choice, not sure? I didn't want to ask them and remained neutral It's business as usual! :w

Steve

[Sweet Music 4 U]

Darren, Now that's karaoke competition bias at it's worst... sounds like a thing like I once saw in a New Mexico Casino karaoke competition once. :m

[swany]

We hate em too, but they draw more people, a few things I have run into. The host said the judging for the finals would be DJs from a local radio station. Did not show on finals night, one of the judges son won the top prize. Contest rule, can't sing the same song in finals as you qualified with. The blond with the nice butt took home $350 and she sang the same song. Her boyfriend did not place ( he was not off key she was and he was a better singer )
Now for the good one I was at, can't sing the same song as you qualify with, finals there is no monitor. The respected music company puts on the show pays for the prizes and judges the show. Rules no relatives or employees of the show can enter. Former contest winners may judge as a guest on qualifing nights (not finals), but can be disqualified for bias judging (leans way to one person that the other judges have not even considered.

[Sweet Music 4 U]

Swany,
The competition format you just discussed.. in your reply.. (the
second.. was what I did up until a year ago) When I stopped running competitions. It was a very successful format for us and many now do it because it was an extremely fair system to many.
It is a "marketability and honest talent" judging system and weeds out the bias in a nanosecond. It really shows how honest the show producers and the KJ really is.


SM2U :c

[swany]

Sweet Music 4 U, We try to do an honest show, lot of bars want to do contests and they want to judge them, we say no! Explain that we have to judge it, or we don't do it. The reason, we don't want some of the bad things that can go wrong. We also, make sure that owners and or relatives, employees of the bar know they can sing but, not in the contest. We have to set the standards for our own shows. Most people want fair contests, and some of the local talent we run across should be on star search or American idol. To all a very merry christmas, and prosperous new year. Remember to have fun.

[kevin7007]

Originally posted by kking
Jumpmaster:
I have always enjoyed hosting contests and I have always hated the judging part. After seeing different contests and methods for judging, the one I chose for my contests is as follows: the contestants judge each other. This is more work because it involves making forms for each contestant to use for judging. This is how it works. Each contestant is given a form with everyone's name on it except theirs. I have three categories listed, with scores from 1-5. I then announce contestants names and make sure the contestant/singers are judging the right person, when that person comes up to sing. After the contest I pick up forms and tally scores and announce the winner. Hope this helps. kking

we also like doing contest my wife and i love
your judging idea do you also use this method for the finals .
also we were thinking about the contestents paying a$1. fee each time they qualify to boost up the purse. what do you think ?
as for as some of the other kjs / djs thoughts i love to sing but i do it for fun these contest are for the ones who are very very good you may win you may lose most mature adults 21 and older relize this . and it is grrreat entertainment. YOU MAY HAVE THE NEXT BON JOVI OR CLINT BLACK AT YOUR SHOW dont laugh its happened. please reply .thanks

[Sweet Music 4 U]

It's was a flat purse with a straight up entry fee based upon the minimum number of paid entries.. paid out over the top 10 singers and then the remaining 20 of the top 30 recieve trophies. we used to draw in this series 150 singers. and in the finals we had 400 singers qualified. with the same singers soring under the same system. and different judges every time. 11 of the singers are now in the recording industry. 1 is now a well known karaoke & audio consultant in the southwest us.

[kevin7007]

super cool beans thats what it is all about , succeding and watching others do the same thanks for the reply

[ltproductions]

First of all, thanks to all of you for the great suggestions that you've posted in this forum. Some of these ideas are really great and I'll be proposing them to the bar owners as alternatives to a contest. I've been a KJ in the Inland Empire (Southern California) for about 10 years now. I too, have mixed feelings about talent contests, but there is no doubt that they do increase business every time, if only temporarily. I've had all the same problems that you've all had and just have a few thoughts of my own. I've tried all the various judging systems at one time or another and
none is perfect. I thought having the contestants judge each other was the answer until I had one where 3 of the contestants (out of 10) were related (husband, wife, and brother/brother-in-law), gave each other maximum scores, and skewed the results in their favor. Needless to say, I was really disillusioned and ticked off:m! I've since settled on 2 hand picked (by me) permanent judges that I KNOW are fair and unbiased. One is a woman, which prevents the "girl with the nice butt":r from winning every time. The 3rd is an alternate which I change on a weekly basis. The contest goes ten weeks with prizes for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Prizes vary from venue to venue. Sometimes it's cash, sometimes it's a buffet dinner for 2, sometimes free drink tokens from the bar, etc. It's not perfect. Some people still think it's rigged and there's usually at least one whiner in the group, but all-in-all it works pretty well for me. Looking forward to hearing from more of you and more of your great ideas!:g

Larry T.

[Sherri]

Just an idea for those of you looking for a different style of Karaoke contest.
I had a problem with some people who owned personal karaoke machines, and could practice every day, against these poor guys who sang only out at karaoke, and had no means to "Brush up on their songs"
My solution to this problem was:
(my karaoke show is country)
I took a mess of old time country classics that most everyone should know. I place girl songs in one bag, and boy songs in another. When the singer comes up to sing, he choses a song out of the bag, if he doesn't like the first song he choses, he may put it back and chose another. But, he must sing the second song if he discards the first one. This takes care of the practicing karaoke singers, and makes the shot a bit more fair. Plus, they seem to enjoy the challange!!
Everyone in the audience gets a judging ballet, and I end up with winners. Then I make all the winners compete on a different day, for overall winner, and I have local radio station personel judge. No one seems to balk if the radio station judges!! It is raising the egos of people who otherwise didn't have one. Hope someone out there, likes the idea and gives it a whirl. It's been working great, they're having a ball!!

[jahern]

Doesn't seem fair for those of the lower voice persuasion. In your system are people allowed to do it again changing the key once they determine that it is too high or low (usually too high). I think that in the men's category tenors would have the advantage since songs rarely expose the lower range.

Country songs might be a different story altogether.

:)

[Garry A. Leslie]

Hello All,
Just a thought on competitions.
In the UK we have a lot of Brass Band competitions, they all have to play a set piece and then another number to show off how versatile they are.
When you listen to 20 bands all playing "The Bells of St. Mary's"
you can imagine how boring this can be.
So use "My Way", as the set piece, Everybody thinks they can sing this better than Frank anyway, (the competitors can all change keys and pitch so no-one is diasadvantaged male and female)
Then they can do their own thing on their own song.
It would certainly show who is the best performer.
Might just kill off karaoke competitions forever.
Regards from across the pond
Garry

[alanross]

Just held our annual contest last night and we used the suggestion from earlier in this forum about having the contestants judge each other. We held five weeks of qualifying and chose three finalists each week. Last night, we held the finals and all fifteen of the finalists were the judges and at the end of the night, not one person complained that the results were "fixed". Also, I cleared the seats around the stage and made all the contestants sit there to do the judging. There was therefore more pressure on them to pay attention and really think about their scoring. The results were very positive. It truly is the best way to handle the judging.

[Jumpmaster_2376]

Originally posted by Sherri
....
I had a problem with some people who owned personal karaoke machines, and could practice every day, against these poor guys who sang only out at karaoke, and had no means to "Brush up on their songs"
My solution to this problem was:


Sherri, thanks a bunch for your post, and I don't mean to pick on you, but to me your post illustrates why I started this thread 2 years ago! Before I get into it, let me first agree with your premise, randomly picking songs and letting folks sing and picking the best of them is fair enough and would certainly be fun.

I didn't have a problem with your idea, as much as some of the words you used to explain it.

There are so many different ideas about what karaoke is all about. Your obviously a caring person and want to take care of your singers so you designed a contest for them to be fair. Yet, I can't help but take offense to your notion that "people who practice" required you to come up with a "solution to this problem". Now I'm not saying your wrong and I'm right...but for me....I would think I died and went to heaven if I had a bunch of regulars who went out and bought machines to practice for my shows!

Naturally these singers who practice stand a better chance to win, but remember they cared enough to go out and make the purchase and spend the time practicing. Secondly, you don't even need a machine to practice a song, a cd player works great. At any rate, I have a problem with the notion that the "good" singers are the "problem."

Besides, I've practiced songs a million times without the machine (in fact I don't even try the karaoke version until I know the song by heart). The problem is that it's hard work to learn a song, especially if it's brand new. To really learn a song I have to sing it over and over and over. Some might be able to grab a mic and hammer a song without any practice. But for me, I have to sing it until I can sing the song acapella from start to finish remembering every single word, with correct phrasing and correct melody, etc. Only then, would I want to step up and perform the song well for karaoke. (Non-serious singers actually believe the music and words will help them "remember" a song - The serious ones know that the opposite is usually true). Don't get me wrong I'm not a snoot, I do "Scaryoke" all the time as you describe and I love it. But for me to pick a song I want to sing, I practice it a lot!

The non-singers don't really care about singing well, and just hope that they heard the song enough that it'll come back to them when the pluck a song out of a book. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don't. I don't mean that as a put down at all, in fact I think that's great too, as long as they are having fun! It's kinda like when I go hunting with my brother in law. He's a fanatic, knows everything about it, spends the money on his equipment, and gets results. I go with him and don't take it anywhere near as serious and yet I have a great time because of the experience and for hanging out with him. It's the same thing (only opposite) when he comes to Karaoke with me.

To me, that's what karaoke is all about! It's about bringing the good singers in to entertain and amaze people with their talent while at the same time showing off the other skills or lack of them for the rest. Everybody has a great time! The good singer who practices gets his Kudos, the guy who can't carry a note gets the high 5's because at least he had Elvis's hip gyrations down pat, and such.

Your post to me illustrates the point I was trying to make when I started this thread.....how can you possibly put on a "fair" contest? American Idol had plenty of controversy and their system is probably about as fair as you could expect because at least all of America votes and whatever "it" is, all of America can decide "it." Even so there was plenty of Studdard/Aiken controversy created. The difference between American Idol and a local karaoke contest is that for Idol the controversy only increases the viewer ratings, but for a local bar the "viewers" are the participants or at least they know the participants well, and when your judges stamp 1 as a winner, they also stamp the others as loosers, causing almost all the."viewers" to be offended.

Again, I think your contest is as fair as any I've seen. I just think your comments reflect the larger problem....What is good karaoke.....my answer is: the great, good, fair and non-singers all meeting together to have one hell of a good time ... so who is really best? ALL OF THEM

Again, thanks Sherri for your post. Hope you don't think I was coming down on you because I wasn't. I was merely illustrating the different schools of thought on karaoke.

I thank all you for your posts, and hope to see even more. I too have done contests (reluctantly) since the thread has started and I've got a lot of good ideas that have improved my contests.

[alanross]

The question of what makes good Karaoke can be answered quite simply: Whatever appeals to an audience enough to keep them coming back.

From my perspective, we draw huge crowds because we have an excellent sound system which we use to focus on each vocalist. We tweak each song to bring out the best of each performance. We have very large crowds with usually a minority of people actually singing. Most of our audience comes out to watch.

Therefore, to me, the best Karaoke is Karaoke that is enjoyable for singers and non-singers alike.

Having said that, the only people who really enjoy the contests are the non-singing audience members. Contestants are always stressed, the host (me) is always under fire and the singers who don't want to be in the contest are stuck waiting for the contest to end before they can sing. Although we've fine tuned our contests to work far more efficiently than ever before, they are still a pain in the butt!

[Jumpmaster_2376]

alanross, I agree with you totally. The only ones who enjoy the contest are non singers.

The only thing I would add is:


The only ones who enjoy the contest are those nonsingers:

who aren't too emotionally tied to one of the non-winning singers!


Still they usually do increase revenues and traffic a bit and most owners will want them. I still dislike them! There are some great ideas on this thread though about how to run one with minimal resistance!

I also think your right about how important it is to have a good system and to run it properly.

[swany]

TRIPLE THREAT KARAOKE CONTEST

Must qualify in all three venues to get in
the finals. Your total plus, your score on finals
determines winner.

Three Judges will be the same the entire contest and hired by the bar
Their pay is dinner and drinks.

Name ___________________________

Oldies ____________________________

Rock _____________________________

Country __________________________

Scores

Voice 1- 10 ________

Appearence 1- 10 ________

Don't Use Monitor 2 ____

Interact with crowd 1 - 5 __

TOTAL __________

This is the format of a contest we recently ran, on finals night the obvious winner forgot his lyrics and walked off. He came in third because of his total pts during qualification. The guy that came in second was running around 5th in pts, he aced is final song (You have to sing two in the finals) a nice slow number and danced with his wife during it. The young man that came in first, was running in second place, he aced both of his songs in the finals and out pointed everyone. He was not the best voice, but a very good singer to be in the finals anyway, had the crowd and the judges after the #1 guy in points goofed on his final song. For the record I was against doing this contest and my wife was the one who got it going, I am very proud of her and this contest because the outcome was fair and no major gripes.

[bryant]

Singing is an art form and and art form cannot be judged.

Who is to say whenther Tim McGraw is better than Faith Hill.
It just doesn't make any sense, unless faith on any given day forgets one word, looks at the monitor for a second and Tim doesn't?? Then Tim wins. Or Tim's tie is crooked and loses two points on the scoresheet and puts him in second. Again, makes no sense.
Also, there are many amateurs that have sung previously in local bands who have all the other points on the sheet racked up because they've been there and done that and can look more natural doing it, but may NOT sing as good as the real amateur.
I think you would have to have categories and levels of categories to the point where you would have more categories than singers to be totally fair, again, makes no sense.
You simply cannot judge a form of art like that.
Most KJ's already can tell when they see a great singer.
Then you would add "If this guy ever competed, he would always win".
On that premise, he would win mostly all local contests in that area. But that would make no sense either.
And most non-professional judges are "exactly" that.
Again, this makes no sense to run a conest attempting to judge an art form.
"Is Elton John better than Barbra Streisand, think about it!
This thought process makes no sense.

I see a rubric in a past voice, it compares:
Voice....what the heck does that mean, there are 8,000 ways to determine the quality of a voice and that is very personal and is decided genetically(judging the sound of a voice and its appeal is genetic).

Appearance: Geesh, if you are singing rap it would be typical to appear like a rap singer, but how does a rap singer appear like a rap singer more than a country singer appears like a country singer...makes no sense.

Don't use monitor: The best hosts of all time "Johnny Carson and Dave Letterman use them all the time.
Also, it is memory that determines a peak at a monitor, nothing to do with the virtue of a singer.

Interact with crowd: Statistically, any small sample used as a reference is considered to have no statistical meaning whatsoever. Most crowds are small and chosen by the singers and are biased and "tied" to singers, and become part of the already "nonprofessional" judges.
That is why only recently music awards have started to be chosen by the public.."because of the internet "hopefully" reaching a much larger crowd of people that may be considered normalized over a great range". They had thought of doing this earlier(before internet)..but those responding would be the small percentage that would take the time to write in several hundred letters a piece, indicating a skewed sample.

Anybody agree with my analysis after giving it much thought?

[alanross]

Every KJ I know, hates doing contests because they are exactly what Karaoke is not. Karaoke is an opportunity for people to get up and sing some of their favorite songs. Period.

Now Karaoke can be used as a tool for people to develop their talents and it can even be used as a platform from which great talent can be discovered, but it was never designed to be a tool for measuring who is "better" than the others.

I have often used the same argument about who is better - Tim McGraw or Garth Brooks. It is an extremely subjective thing. Music is all about the emotions it evokes in you and every person has different emotions about every song and singer.

There is no fair way to judge who is a better singer, but life is not fair and contests will continue because people who compete have a pyschological need to get a gauge of where the fit in in society and bar owners love the revenues.

- Alan

[SteveWalker]

Singing is an art form and and art form cannot be judged...........Anybody agree with my analysis after giving it much thought?

No analysis required. Singing is judged thousands of times a day all over the world. :w Every kind of art you can think of has been judged since the beginning of time. :w

[bryant]

I see you haven't given the rest of the analysis much thought, however. very few art forms are judged, and when they are, they are simply based on how much they sold, and to whom, and even then there are many, many categories that they are whittled down in.

[swany]

Appearence, go up there with dirty work clothes on and you'll be judged on your appearence. Face it a country singer with well worn jeans and straw hat is acceptable their clothes are clean, as is a rapper with a hat on backwards. Dress like a slob that won't get you any points anywhere and you will be judged by your appearence everywhere.

Interact with the crowd, we use wireless mics in all our shows hence points for not using a monitor also can garner you points for interacting. Everyone knows the rules, bring your friends to cheer you on.

The contest we hosted went like this, 1st young man had 4 friends at his table did he sing to them only. No way. 2nd place gentleman, at his table was his wife did he sing to her only, yes his last song, his first to the whole bar. 3rd place gentleman had 5 at his table, he wandered all through the bar. Kinda shoots down the theory that the friends won it for them don't it. When you have 100 people cheering you, something was done to make them happy.

Singing is an art form, and cannot be judged? Tell that to an american idol winner with a million dollar contract. Which one? Classic art, country art, rap art. Calling singing an art is a far left coast idea, singing is a TALENT, some have a lot some just have fun with it, some sell their talent to the highest bidder. Some enter karaoke contests and win. They are called artists, and their singing venue is their art form wearing a cowboy hat and singing country makes you a country artist, pick an area that is country and your appearence will sell samo samo with rock, rap, hip hop ect, without talent they would not be called for anything.

Still having fun.

[bryant]

I'm glad to see someome disagrees, however, every point you brought up still involves comparing apples with oranges.

having just as much fun!

[TouchedArtist]

I'm a new KJ... but I have been singing at Karaoke Events for at least 7 years now and every contest that I have ever been involved with, has been a disaster. :f

I'm not sure if it's the area that I live in or if this is a common problem but, the REGULARS always win the contests around here. Even if there are better singers. I've asked on a number of occassion now that I'm a KJ not to have contests because I think that they ultimatly ruin what could be a good time for everyone.

I've never won a contest but that has nothing to do with me not liking them, I just feel that there are times that contests drive singers away from the bar instead of to it. If you are in a contest that you have to 'qualify for' meaning that there are PRELIMINARY ROUNDS, after most people qualify, they don't come back to the finals. Which causes your bar to loose money and as you KJ's know...if you don't make the bar money, you don't keep your job!

I like to hear about SUCCESSFUL CONTESTS THOUGH...Good luck to all!

[alanross]

Regulars winning the contest even if there are non-regular vocalists who sing better is entirely a function of how the contest is administered.

This thread has existed for the past couple of years and since my first post to this thread, we've had several contests, each more popular than the last because we put the contestants in charge of the judging (I'm still in awe of whomever first thought of doing that).

We no longer have any griping about the winners, we have had many non-regular winners and everyone knows to take it seriously.

If you're going to have a contest, you must make sure that everyone participating is on the same page. Contestants must be made to pay attention to each other and understand that they should judge each other as they would like to be judged.

There needs to be a clear definition of the criteria for the judging and everyone must be made aware of it. A printout with the basic guidelines is extremely helpful. This way the contestants know how to present themselves and their songs and what to look for in the other contestants when they perform. We've refined our criteria to Song Choice (how well does that song seem to fit the singer's personality and appearence - 25% of score); Stage Presence (how well they command the stage - 25% of score) and Vocal Talent (how well do they use their voice and how pleasant is the quality of the voice - 50% of score).

Each contestant/judge is seated with a good view of the stage, they're not allowed distractions by having their boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife sitting next to them. The waitstaff deliver their drinks, and every four or five songs, we take a short bathroom break by either playing one song or having a non-contestant sing one song. The three or four minutes that the song plays is usually enough for a quick comfort break and it's not so long that people lose interest. This seems to work very well.

Once the contestant/judges have scored the last singer, all judging forms are collected and one of the staff will tally the scores. We continue with general Karaoke until the scores have been tallied twice to make sure there are no mathematical errors and then the winners and prizes are announced.

Run properly, you can have a very successful event, but as bryant was trying to point out - there really is no way to take the subjective point of view out of judging. By making the criteria very specific, you can reduce the subjectivity of the contest, but it's all about personal tastes and there is no way around that.

As long as people want to compete and other people want to watch, the bars will make money and the KJs will have to do their thing. It's the way of the world and there's never been any claim that any contest is 100% fair.

- Alan

[SteveWalker]

I'm not sure if it's the area that I live in or if this is a common problem but, the REGULARS always win the contests around here.

The short answer is that they just like to keep the money in the family. I sure you can understand that, right? :g

[bryant]

Once again, based on the previous posts information, it can not to be considered a true contest that CAN BE adequately judged and further supports my previous analogy and conclusion as "making no sense"!

[bryant]

This thread has existed for the past couple of years and since my first post to this thread, we've had several contests, each more popular than the last because we put the contestants in charge of the judging (I'm still in awe of whomever first thought of doing that).

We no longer have any griping about the winners, we have - Alan
It is called "peer evaluation" and has been around for over 1000 years. Nothing new.

[bryant]

I'm a new KJ... but I have been singing at Karaoke Events for at least 7 years now and every contest that I have ever been involved with, has been a disaster. :f

I'm THROUGH...Good luck to all!
That's because they make no sense. It's like putting a chess player and a checker player at the same gameboard at the same time.

I know gduns HATES my analogies, but I think karaoke contests are analogous to comparing apples and oranges, which further interprets into making little or no sense. I am hoping gduns agrees with me on this one, but we'll see.

[bryant]

Oh I forgot to add this one. The best story I ever heard was from a former contestant who once took a 2nd place and complained it did not make any sense because she was simply no where near that good to be "voted" second. She is now one of my regulars and I know she was not "just being modest". She had entered that contest because she was a regular of the other hosts at that time. In other words, the other host has lost out, in agreement with a previous post that stated the KJ always gets the flack.:r :)

I have never run a contest, and have refused to every time it comes up, and I keep picking up other hosts' regulars as part of the result.

[SteveWalker]

Once again, based on the previous posts information, it can not to be considered a true contest that CAN BE adequately judged and further supports my previous analogy and conclusion as "making no sense"!

Strictly speaking you are correct. :) Maybe you shouldn't be so strict! :w

[bryant]

:) Maybe you shouldn't be so strict! :w
I agree thanx. :)

[horseshoe]

Some of this amazes me. Them most popular television show is a contest between different people doing different styles of music.

I had the honor of being asked to be a judge at a contest last week. I work in the bar on Wednesday night, but this was the Sunday night crowd. It was a final elimination contest for a big cash award and a recording contract. All the judges were neutral and didn't know any of the singers. There were six of us, and we all came from different backgrounds in music.

One guy runs a very successful singing telegram company, and is a radio personality. Another is a lawyer who is a talent scout and an agent who represents different singers. One had attended the Julliard school of music. The rest of us were KJs who have worked around this area for a number of years, and were invited to participate, and be judges.

We graded on several unique qualifications. One was pitch control and another was the ability to change pitch in the song they chose. This gave us a good example of their vocal abilities. You have never heard some of the versions of songs they sang. They made them their own, and were fabulous to hear. We also judged them on interaction with the audience, and eye contact with it. The best ones sang to the judges, as well as the audience.

We didn't grade them on reading a screen or on memory, though every one of them sang without the help of the monitor. If they had glanced at the big screen, no points would have been deducted. We were looking for skill and entertainment.

One contestant had won all the local events before, because they had graded on the audience clapping and screaming. Therefore, he always brought his big crowd with him, wherever a contest was held. Then of course, they would leave. He did not place in the top three, because he was not as good as the winners. Everyone of them were allowed to look at the score cards if they wanted. He requested to do that, and then said he was satisfied with the results. Not one person in the audience said anything bad about the judging, except to say it was very fair, and almost to a person agreed on the top three. Almost everyone said the winner had been the best, however second and third could have gone either way.

We stayed and sang the rest of the night, and were warmly greeted and had drinks bought for us all night long from the contestants. I thought they were very gracious and every one of them showed class. Of course, many of them left, and took their crowd with them. Hell, they didn't buy anything but soft drinks anyway, so no big loss.

I can't wait to do it again next year, though I won't do any contests in my Wednesday night gig.

[George]

We graded on several unique qualifications. One was pitch control and another was the ability to change pitch in the song they chose. This gave us a good example of their vocal abilities. You have never heard some of the versions of songs they sang. They made them their own, and were fabulous to hear. We also judged them on interaction with the audience, and eye contact with it. The best ones sang to the judges, as well as the audience.

We didn't grade them on reading a screen or on memory, though every one of them sang without the help of the monitor. If they had glanced at the big screen, no points would have been deducted. We were looking for skill and entertainment.

Exactly...and if approached from the qualities it takes to have a well delivered song; those you mentioned, plus being in obvious control of their voice, breath control, delivery of the lyrics, etc, all are playing the same game, different songs or not,and can be judged on the overall presentation.

George

[bryant]

Some of this amazes me. Them most popular television show is a contest between different people doing different styles of music.

I had the honor of being asked to be a judge at a contest last week. I work in the bar on Wednesday night, but this was the Sunday night crowd. It was a final elimination contest for a big cash award and a recording contract. All the judges were neutral and didn't know any of the singers. There were six of us, and we all came from different backgrounds in music.

One guy runs a very successful singing telegram company, and is a radio personality. Another is a lawyer who is a talent scout and an agent who represents different singers. One had attended the Julliard school of music. The rest of us were KJs who have worked around this area for a number of years, and were invited to participate, and be judges.

We graded on several unique qualifications. One was pitch control and another was the ability to change pitch in the song they chose. This gave us a good example of their vocal abilities. You have never heard some of the versions of songs they sang. They made them their own, and were fabulous to hear. We also judged them on interaction with the audience, and eye contact with it. The best ones sang to the judges, as well as the audience.

We didn't grade them on reading a screen or on memory, though every one of them sang without the help of the monitor. If they had glanced at the big screen, no points would have been deducted. We were looking for skill and entertainment.

One contestant had won all the local events before, because they had graded on the audience clapping and screaming. Therefore, he always brought his big crowd with him, wherever a contest was held. Then of course, they would leave. He did not place in the top three, because he was not as good as the winners. Everyone of them were allowed to look at the score cards if they wanted. He requested to do that, and then said he was satisfied with the results. Not one person in the audience said anything bad about the judging, except to say it was very fair, and almost to a person agreed on the top three. Almost everyone said the winner had been the best, however second and third could have gone either way.

We stayed and sang the rest of the night, and were warmly greeted and had drinks bought for us all night long from the contestants. I thought they were very gracious and every one of them showed class. Of course, many of them left, and took their crowd with them. Hell, they didn't buy anything but soft drinks anyway, so no big loss.

I can't wait to do it again next year, though I won't do any contests in my Wednesday night gig.
I admire this exception to the rule, as is the "American Idle" contests. These contests have very very exceptionally trained judges who are looking for very specific and unique abilities that are worked on for years by the contestants who also have practiced for years and know exactly through a series of pre-interviews what is being judged and by who, and it still takes years for the "Idol" contest to come up with a winner. Anyone that assumes that the "American Idol" is an over night sensation thing is fooling themselves. Someone in my area once went to a state final. The work that was put into it eve at that point was like a full time job. It was like his job performance was simply finally being evaluated. Very unlike a local typical "no sense" karaoke contest.

[gotrich]

I have been in business for 2 years now my contest works like this. You sign up by said time. Each contestant will be judged on a score of 1-100, 50 being average. I have a few people come in and volunteer to judge. A friend a fience a bartender from a different bar.I use 2-3 each night. we run for 12 weeks and take 2 qualifiers a niht based on the score. Score is based on judges oppinion of song. I explain to them that you can take in to account the voice/stage show whatever. This is explained before and after each contest. Also it is said IT IS ALL FOR FUN many time throughout the evening. The semi finalst I try to find different judges if I can. The semi finals will narrow the 24 to 12. I then get a local music teacher, or local radio DJ or Local High profile band member to volunteer... out of all these option I can always find 3 guest VOLUNTEERS. And then the 12 sing 1 song narrowed down to 6 those 6 sing one song and then the last 3 sing for the money..so have 3 songs do them like the origional artist or in you rown style..basically ENTERTAIN US!!! thats it its that simple. of course you get a few who cant sing or whateverand complain but overall they are ok. I have thought about letting the judges pick a winner and the audience pick the other. Or letting winners from weeks before judge but they would vote low on the better singer hoping they dont have to compete, and thought about letting each contestant judge the one on stage but immaturity andjelousy and drunkness get in the way.

[bryant]

sounds like a reasonable "just for fun" approach!:)

[Jumpmaster2376]

It's been over 4 years since I posted the original question! I'm amazed the thread still has life. Like 'em or not, contests seem to hit a nerve for us karaoke folks.

I sure appreciate all your responses, and I'm sure that thanks to them if I ever do another contest I've got enough of your great ideas to improve any future contest of mine.

Still, I feel I will try to avoid them when possible. My gut tells me that if I tell this singer they are number one, I'm telling the rest they are not.

Dennis

[SteveWalker]

Contests are used to temporarily boost attendance at karaoke shows to sell more liquor and make more $$$ cash! No one cares who wins or who the best singer except the singers. The bars like to award the karaoke contests to the bar flies and regulars who support them with their $$$ cash. Just an observation over the years going back to 1988 when laser karaoke started. Anyone wishing to be in a real contest can join the next "Amerian Idol" contest.

[danny_g]

I have adopted the policy of no contests because while it may bring more patrons into the bar they end up not coming back once the contest is over which in my opinion is a death sentence to the karaoke host when asked why the week after the contest there is a lower amount of people attending the show. I would rather do give aways than contests or a contest that has nothing to do with singing ability but encourages the singers to get involved or sing songs that they would not normally try- something like a mystery song contest.

[bryant]

Still, I feel I will try to avoid them when possible. My gut tells me that if I tell this singer they are number one, I'm telling the rest they are not.

Dennis

That is precisely right, as in fact, you are creating losers.
What fun is that, right?
I, also, do along the way, giveaways throughout the year.
I make it random; Pavlov's theories state that random positive enforcement works best.

[Lonman]

Funny thing is if contests are so terrible, WHY then do people feel the need to enter? Why are contest nights always packed?
Answer simply, if it's fun to do & people enjoy something, SOMEONE is going to make it into a competition - this goes for ANYTHING that's supposed to be fun, not just karaoke. Why do people compete - it's human nature to try to be the best! All the way from the prettiest baby contest to a Grandma quilting contest & everything, sport, hobby, music & anything else you can think of - Guiness book of world records is nothing BUT a huge contest in almost everything imagineable.
We run contests all the time, don't lose customers over it, our regs know that when the contest is over, things will get back to normal & we've actually gained new regs from contests - not all the time, but most of them we've ran. Only advice is try to keep everything as fair as possible (even though people will still see it as not - again, human nature), allow all judges sheets to be reviewd, never allow audience response as a scoring criteria, have judges at least knowledgeable in the music field & having absolutely nothing to do with the club holding the contest.

[alanross]

Funny thing is if contests are so terrible, WHY then do people feel the need to enter?
It's the show host who suffers more than any of the contestants. Most show hosts hate contests, not the contestants.
- Alan

[Lonman]

It's the show host who suffers more than any of the contestants. Most show hosts hate contests, not the contestants.
- Alan

Depends on how they run their contest to begin with. I've never had a problem with them.